out of limits

There have been a lot of questions concerning getting a train “out of limits” and the proper way to claim the time.

Excerpt from the St. Louis Hub Agreement Side Letter 26:

Freight pool and extra board engineers filling regular assigned engineer vacancies standing first out on the board at time of call when required to relieve a train on the far side of the terminal under the “25-mile zone” provisions of this Agreement will be considered as having departed the terminal when such engineer departs in the conveyance to said train.


Excerpt from the St. Louis Hub Agreement - Q&A:


Q.6. How is a crew which received their train in the twenty-five (25) mile zone on the far side of the terminal compensated?


A.6. When so used, the crew shall be paid an additional one-half (1/2) basic day at the basic pro rata through freight rate for this service in addition to the district miles of the run. If the time spent beyond the terminal is greater than four (4) hours, they shall be paid on a minute basis at the basic pro rata through freight rate. Miles within the 25-mile zone shall not be added to the district miles of the run. Time spent within the zone does not factor into the computation of overtime; however, if the time spent within the zone, if factored into the computation of overtime, would produce road overtime earnings for the tour of duty in excess of the minimum four (4) hour payment, the higher overtime earnings would apply.


Q.7. If a crew in the twenty-five (25) mile zone is delayed in bringing the train into the origin terminal so that it does not have time to go to the destination terminal, what will happen to the crew?


A.7. If the crew had operated back through the origin terminal, they will be transported to the destination terminal, unless emergency conditions (i.e., acts of God, derailment, etc.) prevent such, and be paid district miles, overtime where applicable and a minimum of four (4) hours at the basic pro rata through freight rate.


Q.8. In regard to Question 6 above. What happens if a crew in the twenty-five (25) mile zone is delayed and does not depart the origin terminal a second time?


A.8. If the crew origin terminal is the home terminal will be released at the origin terminal and paid a basic day, including overtime when applicable, in addition to the minimum of four (4) hours at the basic pro rata through freight rate for working the 25-mile zone. If the origin terminal is the away terminal, the crew will be deadheaded to the destination terminal, except in cases of emergency (i.e., Acts of God, derailment, etc.).


Q.9. Is it the intent of this agreement to use engineers in the 25-mile zone if not qualified to operate on that territory?


A.9. No. It is not the intent of this agreement to require engineers to operate against their will within the 25-mile zone if not familiar with such territory.


Q.10. Do the 25-mile zone provisions, including the pay provisions thereof, apply to all engineers?


A.10. These provisions apply equally to pre-1985 engineer, post-1985 engineers, and engineers hired/promoted subsequent to the provisions of this agreement.


Q.11. Is the ½ day at the basic pro rata through freight rate for operating in the 25-mile zone frozen and/or is it a duplicate payment/special allowance?


A.11. No, it is subject to future wage adjustments and it is not a duplicate pay/special allowance.


Example 1 –


 Crew was called on duty for 10:00, upon going on duty you are notified that you must go to the far side of the terminal (within the 25-mile zone) to get the train. The crew departs from that location and reaches the destination terminal.


Record all information outlined in the Supt Bulletin.




If you spend time waiting for a van and or waiting for paperwork, note this in your FRA tie up that you spent “OT” on line E for a van or Paperwork.


Show your transport accurately as well as time out of the limits. If your time out of the limits exceeds 4 hours be sure to note that as you are entitled to additional compensation on a minuet by minuet basis. If the overtime pay is greater than the time spent out of the limits, you will be paid the higher amount.


Example 2 –


 Crew was called on duty for 10:00, upon going on duty you are notified that you must go to the far side of the terminal (within the 25-mile zone) to get the train. The crew departs from that location and does not reach the destination terminal.


As above show all information correctly, however in this situation you are entitled to all district miles, overtime earnings if applicable and the 4-hour payment with no offset of your overtime.



It is important to note there is a difference between the 25-mile zone/ out of limits payment and the runoff seniority district payment. If the crew is instructed to go beyond the 25-mile zone they are entitled to a basic day payment with no offset in either situation above. 


If you have any questions, please contact your Local Chairman.



Interchange at Roselake

On August 26, 2019 the carrier served notice on a change of interchange locations at Roselake, to include locations east of HN Cabin.

       We responded to that notice advising the carrier that we had objections to this unilateral change in the interchange limits and outlined our objections.

       On September 6, 2019 Labor Relations sent a revision of the designated interchange tracks at Roselake to include only the Roselake Yard up to the East Switch of the yard “HN Cabin”.

       If you have in the past 60 days been forced to go east of Roselake Inbound or Outbound. I ask that you modify that timeslip to include “Running off Seniority District” if this claim is declined, turn it in to your local chairman for processing in the claims handling process.

       If you are instructed to travel beyond HN Cabin, I ask that you let your Local Chairman know and as well file the claim for “Running off your seniority District”. If you are not qualified be sure to request a pilot if you are instructed to travel beyond HN Cabin.

Remember the CSX Operates under a different set of Rules!




To: All employees of Union Pacific Railroad Company represented by the BLET Central Region General Committee of Adjustment (former Missouri Pacific Upper Lines):

For nearly 30 years, the GCA has been working hard to resolve time claims or grievances that Union Pacific locomotive engineers on the former MP Upper Lines have filed against UP’s wrongful application of the collective bargaining agreement provisions regarding regulation of the extra board and dropping turns.  This is to notify you that a settlement finally has been reached.  The settlement has two parts:

(1) extra board regulation and the “dropping of turns” on the territories governed by the GCA was modified effective the first regular pay half after May 3, 2019, and

(2) UP will pay $11,000,000 (“the Settlement Amount”) to resolve all outstanding time claims or grievances that have been denied by the Carrier at any level, including Timekeeping, involving the regulation of a guaranteed extra board and the dropping of turns, including time claims or grievances that were properly filed but not denied within the allowable contractual time period.   

The GCA’s records reflect that approximately 150,000 claims were filed by about 950 claimants since 1990.  The $11 million will be distributed amongst all claimants on a pro rata, per claim basis.  Each claimant will be entitled to a share of the Settlement Amount determined by multiplying the total money available ($11 million) by a fraction the numerator of which is the number of claims submitted by the claimant and the denominator of which is the total number of claims filed.  For example, if a claimant submitted 100 claims and the total number of claims filed by all claimants was 150,000, the claimant would receive $7,333.33 [$11,000,000 ÷ 100/150,000].

The GCA has reviewed its records and sent preliminary determinations to all claimants for whom it has records of the amounts they are eligible to receive under the Settlement.  If you received a letter and believe that you are entitled to a greater share of the Settlement Amount because you submitted more claims than the GCA’s records indicate, you must provide the GCA with evidence in support of your position in writing within 30 days of the date of the letter you received.  If you filed claims over extra board regulation and/or dropping turns and did not receive a letter from the GCA, that is likely because the GCA does not have your current address; you should immediately write to the GCA and provide us with your current address.  The GCA will evaluate all evidence submitted and, if it determines that the evidence supports your position, it will adjust the preliminary calculation it has made.  The final determination of each claimant’s share will be made after all claimants have been identified and the number of claims they filed has been verified.


The Settlement Amount will be distributed in two phases.  The initial distribution of $5.5 million will be made by the Carrier on or before December 6, 2019. Challenges raised by individuals regarding their eligibility for, or amounts of, distributions under this settlement that were not raised in response to the initial notification from the GCA must be submitted in writing to the GCA, with supporting evidence, and received no later than January 3, 2020.


The remaining $5.5 million balance is being held back to provide the parties time to resolve any additional claims or challenges that may arise from the initial distribution.  This could affect the total each claimant ultimately receives.  The balance will be distributed by the Carrier on or before March 15, 2020.


All payments to current employees will be subject to all applicable deductions, garnishments, federal, state and local income taxes, and employee railroad retirement taxes.  The claim settlement distribution will not be counted as earnings toward the 2020 1/52 vacation rate or count toward vacation qualification for 2020 or 2021.  For distributions to former employees or their estates, the Carrier will withhold employees’ share of federal and state income taxes using the applicable rate for supplemental wages.


If you are retired or no longer work for the railroad, you must submit a W-4 form in order to receive your share of the settlement; the form can be obtained at https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw4.pdf. It must be filled out and returned to the GCA by U.S. mail within 30 days of the date of this letter.


Enclosed in your letter is a claimant verification form.  This form must be filled out and returned to the GCA by U.S. mail within 30 days of the date of your letter.



Central Region GCA Settlement


Hazelwood, Mo 63042



Because there are so many claimants, any questions you have about the settlement must be submitted to the GCA in writing by U.S. mail.  It will endeavor to respond as promptly as possible.

GXB Free Day issue


The Term Free Day (FD) is something CMS & Timekeeping came up with in order to separate the layoff and pay issues of Section 4 of the GXB Agreement (attached below). This is not in line with the language of the agreement. We have been working with Labor Relations to have the agreement applied correctly. 

In the meantime, if you are on the GXB the entire half and take any 24-hour period regardless of status, and more than the bonus day is reduced from your guarantee you need to file the attached claim. The following provision must be met: 


 At the time of the layoff the engineer must be other than first out.


The layoff must be taken at any time commencing 12:01 AM Monday and concluded by 11:59 PM Thursday.


The layoff cannot exceed 24 hours.

The main issue with how CMS is applying the agreement is, they are denying the “FD” status based on the needs of manpower. There is nothing in Section 4 that refers to the need of manpower.

We are working with Labor Relations to get the “FD” Status on the EAMS system and where the only way the request of layoff can be denied is if its not inline with the provisions above. Until this happens File the below claim accordingly.



Free Day Claim


Claim One Day of Guarantee account, I was on the (Circ and Board) the entire half from (Beginning date of half) to (Ending date of half) only had one layoff period during this time. This layoff falls into the “Free Day” provision of the Guaranteed Extra Board Agreement, Section 4.



File attachments: 
PDF icon Free Day claim.pdf46.67 KB
PDF icon Guaranteed Extra Board Agrmt.pdf545.03 KB

Six Axle Restrictions




Lately, there has been several seniority moves made by conductors and engineers. This could mean working a yard job, a local, or doing work at location you may not be familiar with. There are several locations that are restricted to only four axle locomotives. Take the time during your job briefings to review these locations. Many of these locations cannot handle a six axle locomotive due to track curvature or rail conditions. Six axle locomotive restrictions can be found in the following reference material. 


Timetable Subdivision page and Subdivision General Orders

SI-11 Industrial Leads

SI-14 Miscellaneous Instructions


Superintendent Bulletins

Category 2-Site Specific 

Category 2A-Site Specific


Below are couple of examples of when it would be important to know these restrictions.


If you are working the LSE57 and are going to service Dow Chemical at Riverside, then you must have a 4 axle in your consist. You would find this information in SI-14 Miscellaneous Instructions on the Desoto Subdivision Timetable page. Also, note that while servicing the industry, you can only have one four axle on line.


There is another scenario you could possibly encounter at Riverside. This would be with the transfer of blocks between the LSH08 and LSE57. If while working the LSE57 and you did not have to service Dow, you may have only brought SD40’s with you to do your work. This would be perfectly acceptable, because the four axle restriction at Desoto and Riverside do not apply to the siding. While waiting at a Riverside for the LSH08, they stall pulling up the hill into Riverside while on the St. Genevieve Industrial Lead. Although you may want to go help pull them up the hill, you cannot. The only solution is for them to double the hill. This is because the St. Genevieve Industrial Lead is restricted to only being able use 4 axle locomotives.


There are two locations on the Jefferson Subdivision to be aware of. One location is Lake Industrial Lead at milepost 8.4. If you were on a train and the dispatcher asked you to pick up what the LSE59 left there, you could not if all you had in your consist were six axle locomotives.


Another location on the Jefferson Subdivision is at milepost 126, the Bagnell Industrial Lead, off of main track two at Jefferson City. No six axles are allowed beyond Industrial Drive. The means that you cannot use a six axle locomotive to service any of the customers located on the Industrial Lead west of that road. However, you can use the Industrial Lead to wye your consist if needed, six axles included, as long as you do not go beyond Industrial Drive.


These are only a couple of the many locations with six axle restrictions. Take the time to review Timetable Instructions and Superintendent Bulletins for locations that you service so that you don’t place yourself or your crew into a compromising situation. 



Jeff City and Dexter Hotel info


   The Local Chairman met with the UP Lodging Department as well as the new General Manager at the Jeff City Hotel, the Managing Director and the Director of Operations for Aimbridge Hospitality (The Group that owns the old Oaktree Locations)  .
At the Jefferson City Location there was a lot of talk about the insects and spiders, during the inspection they found 3 spiders and captured them to show Orkin. In the past few months they have a new program and new products they are bringing in to tackle the spiders. The big take away from this is if you find a bug in your room to immediately report this to the front desk, if you would like a new room they will provide it. Once a room is reported it is taken out of service and fumigated. Orkin is contracted at all of their properties for once a month fumigation, they spray 1/3 of the rooms, this way each room is sprayed and inspected once a quarter. 
They overall cleanliness was brought up and they agreed the quarterly "Deep Cleaning" and Maintenance has lacked. The new GM is tasked to improve that. He seams to be a "Fixer" for the hotel and travels to the problem spots. So hopefully he can help. 
Security at the Jeff City Location, the doors are going to be locked from sunset to sunrise including the front door. Starting next Monday if not sooner, after dark you will have to be buzzed into the facility, this will hopefully help keep some of the problems away. They are also looking to change the rates for the general public to hopefully keep some of the problems away on the other front. 
Some Changes coming to Jeff City and Dexter, when you check in they are going to begin having us sign a registration card, this is simply another backup for them to verify who is in what room. If you are going to have a wait for a room there is going to be a log book we are going to have to sign as well, this is all for tracking purposes. 
They are also asking everyone to notify the front desk upon checkout. 
There is also going to be a Maintenance Request Form that is going to be left in all rooms, if you have an issue regardless of the issue, Dirty room to a leaking faucet, bad pillows or uncomfortable bed, fill this form out. I am asking you to take a picture of it and text it to your Local Chairman and turn the slip into the front desk. 

Denny D’s Did You Know

Denny D’s Did You Know


Changing Directions Within a Control Point


6.4.2 - Movements Within Control Points or Interlockings


A: Control Points Outside Manual Interlockings


Except within track and time limits, if movement stops while the trailing end is between the outer opposing signals of a control point, the movement must not change directions without permission from the control operator. However, after a job briefing has been conducted and the control operator has a clear understanding of all movements to be made and tracks to be used, the control operator may grant permission for all movements.




Quite often I hear crews asking for permission to change directions while in a control point when it is not necessary. Thinking of the potential delays caused by this, I also worry about crews not asking for permission when it is required. Understanding proper application of GCOR 6.4.2 is crucial for a couple of reasons. Most importantly, knowing when permission is needed is critical to avoiding a potential main track authority violation and a possible incident. Also, knowing when permission is not needed eliminates unnecessary delays. Understanding this rule depends upon knowing of a couple of terms found within this rule, change directions and trailing end.


Change Directions


When the term change directions is used in this rule, it simply means a reverse move. This rule is the second part of GCOR 6.4 - Reverse Movements. A reverse move is defined in the GCOR Glossary as movement in opposite the authorized direction. This could be whether you are shoving or pulling. In a control point, your authorized direction is determined by signal indication or verbal authority from the control operator. In CTC, this also determines your authorized direction into the block beyond that control point.


Trailing End


The other term for understanding proper application of this rule is trailing end. You trailing end is determined by your authorized direction. If you are pulling, this would be the very last car. If you are shoving, this would be your locomotive. However, it is important to remember that your trailing end is not determined by pulling or shoving. It is determined by your authorized direction. Also, it is important to remember that your trailing end and authorized direction does not change simply by changing the direction you are moving. It is always determined by the direction you are signaled or verbally authorized.


With these two terms clarified, it now becomes simple to remember when permission to change directions in a control point is needed and when it is not. 


To help clarify, here are couple of examples. Before moving, think to yourself, “what is my authorized direction and what constitutes my trailing end”. In the examples, when you see the term, between the outer opposing signal of the control point, this simply means the entering signals at both ends of the control point. You may also hear the term OS used, this is basically the same thing.


Permission Needed


For the first example we will use North Dupo, CP D004. In this example you are given a signal to shove south into the yard onto the Seldom Used Lead to switch a cut of cars at the intermodal ramp. As you come to a stop after shoving, the locomotive is between the outer opposing signals (in the OS). Before you can change directions you must get permission from the dispatcher. 




You were signaled southbound into the yard at the control point, so that is your authorized direction. Also, your trailing end, the very north piece of equipment, which in this case is your locomotive, stopped between the outer opposing signals. In this example, the dispatcher can give a train a signal at Parks CP D002 to come south down to CP D004 while your engine is still in the control point. Think of what could happen if you were to pull forward back into the block. Another point to remember is had your locomotive stopped while in block the ahead of the control point between Parks and North Dupo you would not need permission. This would be a reverse move in the block accordance with GCOR 6.4.1. However, if you were going to leave northbound from this location, you would need permission to depart ahead of the signal.


Permission Not Needed


In the next example we will again use North Dupo, CP D004. This time you are in the intermodal yard switching and the dispatcher gives you a signal to poke north out of the yard off of the Seldom Used Lead. You pull into the control point and into the block between CP D004 and CP D002. When you stop, the cut of cars you are attached to are still in the yard. The crew shoves you back to make a cut and your locomotive stops in the control point between the outer opposing signals (in the OS). In this example you do not need permission to change directions. 


Why Not? 


The signal to poke north determined your authorized direction in the control point and also into the block between North Dupo and Parks. Even though you were shoving south, the locomotive was not your trailing end and your authorized direction for that control point and that block did not change just because you changed directions. In this example, even though your engine stopped between the outer opposing signals of the control point, you did not give up the block. Your authorized direction did not change. Your trailing end is still the very south piece of equipment, the cars, which are back in the yard, this does not change whether you are pulling or shoving. If you pulled completely out of the yard and received a signal to shove back into the yard, then you would need permission as with the first example. It all hinges on your original authorized direction given to you by the signal or verbally..


Additional Information 


If you get behind the signal, obviously you need another signal to go back into the control point. It is also important to know where your wheels are at if your engine is right at the signal when you stop. It may appear as though you are still in the OS because the front of your engine is beyond the signal, but your leading wheels may be just behind the insulated joint. You could actually pull past a stop signal not realizing that you had. It is important to always stay focused.


If you have any questions, feel free to contact me anytime.  

Dennis Dunn: (314) 609-2164 / [email protected]

GXB Issues we are working on.

"FD" Issue, for the record any extra board employee that is marked up the entire half is allowed to take one 24 hour non compensated day off with only the loss of the bonus day. I know, in the past they have taken the bonus day along with an additional day of guarantee. If you took an LP or LS, as long as the period falls into the provisions of not first out at the time of layoff and the layoff does not exceed 24 hours and is between 12:01 AM Monday and concluded by 11:59 PM Thursday.  THIS IS NOT CORRECT. If this happens let me know, I can get your day paid back to you. This has been an on going issue for a long time, I was able to get Labor Relations to understand our position and the agreement on this issue. 
FD is a status that CMS created, it means nothing to the agreement, there is also nothing within the agreement that says due to manpower restrictions. Therefor this layoff can not be denied. With all of that said we are working to get FD status on the web site to be able to layoff and it wont be able to be denied unless its outside of the provision above. Stay Tuned.... 
Rotation at 12:01, Those who have been involved with the system rotating the wrong person at noon are well aware of this issue, We have LR looking into this and hopefully getting the system fixed. For clarification the first out person in OK Status at 12:01 rotates 

CSX - Roselake


    It has come to my attention that the new "van policy" at rose lake, is to drop the crews off at the tower, the CSX yardmaster will arrange a ride for us with their yard shuttle. 
   It has also been made aware to me that there have been a few cases where the UP crews have been instructed to go east of HN cabin to Black Lane / Exermont or farther. If you are instructed to do this make sure you are qualified, if not request a pilot, also this constitutes a claim for running off seniority district. 
Any issues getting this paid let me know.